[Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Noddy330
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Noddy330 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:10 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Noddy330 wrote:OK - thanks.
Sorry, should have said I have log file I can supply.
Nod


Nod, could you please try the attached version - the problem with SN should be fixed (will update notes just once). Thanks!



Thanks, I can't test right now but will do later today
PS. I noticed, in SN, that a some of my notes from Section Main did not have at tag of #section/Main. Does that matter?
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby usbpoweredfridge » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:11 am

@Thomas: No, in my main notebook, I need to scroll the tags - a lot (which is why I have now entered a wish into the roadmap for a better way of navigating the tag list). However, I am in the process of creating even more (and smaller) notebooks from my current set of notebooks, and a number of my notebooks do not require scrolling for the tags. I essentially use the File menu to switch between the notebooks that require scrolling, and the notebooks which don't.

I can now reproduce the problem. I need two notebooks - one with a small number of tags which I do not need to scroll (as the tags all fit on the screen without scrolling). The second notebook is a notebook with a large number of tags. So, I open the large notebook, scroll down the list (it probably doesn't matter how far I scroll, as long as I scroll off the first page). I then go into the File menu and swap to the smaller notebook. As soon as I do, the problem occurs. So yes, CN is trying to save the relative position of the tag list and is failing to properly correct itself when it switches notebooks, to one with a smaller tag list.

Chris
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Noddy330 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:58 pm

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Noddy330 wrote:OK - thanks.
Sorry, should have said I have log file I can supply.
Nod


Nod, could you please try the attached version - the problem with SN should be fixed (will update notes just once). Thanks!

Thomas, Chris - thanks for your comments, will reply a bit later!


After a few sync nows got it down to alternating

Uploading New Notes 3 of 3
Sync Completed

and

Uploading New Notes 3 of 3
Removing Remote Notes 3 of 3
Sync Not Completed. Please retry later

looked at the offending notes in the log and got it down to 1 of 1

logged into SN

and now every sync now does a mix of

Downloading New Notes
Uploading new notes
Removing remote notes
Uploading updates
Moving remote note to reclycle bin

with no pattern

Confusing
Noddy330
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Noddy330 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:44 pm

Noddy330 wrote:
CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Noddy330 wrote:OK - thanks.
Sorry, should have said I have log file I can supply.
Nod


Nod, could you please try the attached version - the problem with SN should be fixed (will update notes just once). Thanks!

Thomas, Chris - thanks for your comments, will reply a bit later!


After a few sync nows got it down to alternating

Uploading New Notes 3 of 3
Sync Completed

and

Uploading New Notes 3 of 3
Removing Remote Notes 3 of 3
Sync Not Completed. Please retry later

looked at the offending notes in the log and got it down to 1 of 1

logged into SN

and now every sync now does a mix of

Downloading New Notes
Uploading new notes
Removing remote notes
Uploading updates
Moving remote note to reclycle bin

with no pattern

Confusing


Checked I am using 2.8 b4

I then deleted my db
added my SN details
and re synced with SN

downloading new notes 1 of 1722 ...
moving local notes to recycle bin 1 of 79

and now all seems ok
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:03 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Yes, i mean the search edit box. How about Alt+Shift+Left / Alt+Shift+Right. This would correlate to the navigation keys.

I see two problems with that:
1) Difficult to use one-handed
2) Two hot keys doing same action seems superfluous

How about Ctrl+Shift+BkSp? It's easier to press one handed.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:I think that having both notebook and section tabs together on top will give best usability, since it requires the least mouse movements. Sure, having them separated visually might make the difference of both of them clearer. But i vote for usability. Maybe the presentation can help distinguish them. For example using different colors/themes.

Got it, thanks for your opinion. Of course the bottom "Excel-style" location, if implemented, will be optional.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Ok, thanks. I got it. Imo the whole issue reflects that the implementation is rather difficult to understand (at least to me).

But single menu was the idea that you yourself supported. How else can a single menu be implemented I wonder? The only improvement I can think of is to display the current filter state only when it isn't the last in the stack (i.e. when there are "forward" items), but wouldn't it just add to the confusion I wonder?

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Ok, this is also caused by the current state. The problem is, that this current state of 'empty' is meaningless (besides being a technical requirement). As a user i am not interested in storing empty states, regardless on what caused their creation. Even if it might be ok to show them as curent state (in bold), it is a fact that they get stored in history. I could show you a screenshot, but as soon as i press Alt+key Windows hides the popup menu. I can make a screenshot with my camera though, if you like.

The bold state, when it is on the top, is in fact just added to the menu, not really recorded in history. So let's exclude this case from discussion.
Now, the initial empty state gets recorded - like we discussed before. Do you mean in some cases other empty states get recorded? Please tell me how to reproduce this.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:21 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:An easier and more predictable way of doing this could be:
Save history,
  • when the notes list gets the focus (matching note(s) found)
  • when a new search starts (saves items, in case the notes list does not get focused)
  • when search gets reset (Ctrl+F) (stop searching, start new search)
  • when the user clicks [X] in the search edit box (stop searching, start new search)

This is a good suggestion, thanks. I think with a few minor improvements it can be considered for 2.8.1.

Maybe a solution to the latter could be to store items only, when the search text changes in whole words. For example when "javascript generators ec6" changes to "javascript generators ecmascript 6".

You mean when the number of words changes?

In general, I suggest the following: we'll release 2.8 as it is - it's long overdue anyway. After that we will collect user's suggestions for the filter history feature and implement the best of them in 2.8.1.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:26 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Thanks again. I am aware of your statement, that 'all' is not a section on its own. However, from our last discussions my understanding was, that in regards to the history, it would create a state on its own. In most of my use cases i have selected 'all'. It is not self-explaining, that 'all' is based on the last active section, whatever that section was. Especially the user will be presented a completely different history when he enters 'all' depending on his last active section.

Yes. The correct thing to do would be to choose only one: either multiple section selection, or separate section states. But when both get into the mix they create this complete mess. Maybe we still could create a fictional "All" section with its own state, but then selecting this section via the button/shortcut, and selecting all sections manually, one-by-one, would lead to different states. Oops, not good.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Yes, that is way too complicated. Especially having a history for each section. I think having just one global history is enough.

I agree. Of course some can find it handy, e.g. Chris does. I can predict that many will complain. But now it leads to the UI that so complex that people can't even follow our discussions here, and we need to do something about it.
Alex
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:05 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:Thanks again. I am aware of your statement, that 'all' is not a section on its own. However, from our last discussions my understanding was, that in regards to the history, it would create a state on its own. In most of my use cases i have selected 'all'. It is not self-explaining, that 'all' is based on the last active section, whatever that section was. Especially the user will be presented a completely different history when he enters 'all' depending on his last active section.
Yes. The correct thing to do would be to choose only one: either multiple section selection, or separate section states. But when both get into the mix they create this complete mess. Maybe we still could create a fictional "All" section with its own state, but then selecting this section via the button/shortcut, and selecting all sections manually, one-by-one, would lead to different states. Oops, not good.

I hope this will no longer be a problem, when the 3.0 UI changes will simplify overall handling.

Thomas
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:12 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:An easier and more predictable way of doing this could be:
Save history,
  • when the notes list gets the focus (matching note(s) found)
  • when a new search starts (saves items, in case the notes list does not get focused)
  • when search gets reset (Ctrl+F) (stop searching, start new search)
  • when the user clicks [X] in the search edit box (stop searching, start new search)

This is a good suggestion, thanks. I think with a few minor improvements it can be considered for 2.8.1.

Fine :)

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:Maybe a solution to the latter could be to store items only, when the search text changes in whole words. For example when "javascript generators ec6" changes to "javascript generators ecmascript 6".
You mean when the number of words changes?

No. My example is misleading. Better try: when "javascript generators ec6" changes to "javascript generators harmony". It is still three words, but the last one changed. Of course this implies, that a change in word numbers also will give a separate history item. For example when "javascript generators harmony" changes to "generators harmony".

CintaNotes Developer wrote:In general, I suggest the following: we'll release 2.8 as it is - it's long overdue anyway. After that we will collect user's suggestions for the filter history feature and implement the best of them in 2.8.1.

I agree. Beta 3 (or beta 4 in regards to the SN problems) is ready for production. With one minor issue: let's change the menu shortcut as you have suggested to Ctrl+Shift+Bksp.

Thomas
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:19 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:Ok, thanks. I got it. Imo the whole issue reflects that the implementation is rather difficult to understand (at least to me).
But single menu was the idea that you yourself supported. How else can a single menu be implemented I wonder? The only improvement I can think of is to display the current filter state only when it isn't the last in the stack (i.e. when there are "forward" items), but wouldn't it just add to the confusion I wonder?

With the exception of empty states, the single menu is fine. What is still difficult to understand (to predict), is what will be stored to the history. For example, when i switch to a section the text search will be added to the history, because it is the new current state. However, history should reflect the past only, not the current state, as the current state has not been executed as a search yet. Some of the confusion caused relates to the fact, that it sometimes can be difficult to explain something on a bulletin board, which could be easily explained, when people sit side by side.

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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:28 am

usbpoweredfridge wrote:What exactly do you mean by 'view state'?

Good question! Under "view state" I mean the state of the search filter (including all settings), tags filter, section filter and sort settings. "View state" is basically everything which influences which notes are displayed and in which order.

"Filter state" is almost the same as "view state", it just doesn't include the sort order.

usbpoweredfridge wrote:I don't make a great deal of use of sections, but when I do, I do appreciate being able to set the sorting order different to the other sections in the notebook. If this were to be removed, I would have to I guess make even more notebooks - which would be painful

We are currently planning notebook tabs for 3.0, but I can give no guarantees here, unfortunately.

usbpoweredfridge wrote:While customisability and flexibility sound good in theory, in practice, there is a considerable downside: a decrease in usability. Having some experience with this with the media play I do volunteer support for, I think CN has hit this point with respect to what has been described. So, yes - simplify it.


Thanks a lot for your opinion!
Alex
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:32 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:Do you mean in some cases other empty states get recorded? Please tell me how to reproduce this.

Yes, that is the problem. I've send a screenshot to you via private mail. Usually this happens when i search for a word, press Ctrl+F, search for another word, press Ctrl+F and so on.

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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:34 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:We are currently planning notebook tabs for 3.0, but I can give no guarantees here, unfortunately.

I have plans to re-organize my notes to different databases. Looking forward to this, too. :)

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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:40 am

Noddy330 wrote:PS. I noticed, in SN, that a some of my notes from Section Main did not have at tag of #section/Main. Does that matter?

In theory it shouldn't, but in practice it might. Although it seems that with Beta 4 we've fixed all the outstanding bugs in this regard.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby usbpoweredfridge » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:22 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:We are currently planning notebook tabs for 3.0, but I can give no guarantees here, unfortunately.


Understood. In the interests of the greater good (ie simplifying things), I could live with the removal of the separate view states for sections - I will just break the sections I have out into new notebooks and can put up with the increased time in swapping between notebooks for the moment.

Have you had a chance to try and reproduce the hidden tags issue, which I give the reproduction steps for in my previous post?

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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:33 am

usbpoweredfridge wrote:I can now reproduce the problem. I need two notebooks - one with a small number of tags which I do not need to scroll (as the tags all fit on the screen without scrolling). The second notebook is a notebook with a large number of tags. So, I open the large notebook, scroll down the list (it probably doesn't matter how far I scroll, as long as I scroll off the first page). I then go into the File menu and swap to the smaller notebook. As soon as I do, the problem occurs. So yes, CN is trying to save the relative position of the tag list and is failing to properly correct itself when it switches notebooks, to one with a smaller tag list.


Wow, that's some outstanding work you've done here. Thanks to it I was able to easily reproduce and fix the issue!
Here's the fixed version, please try it out:
Attachments
CintaNotes_2_8_Beta4_Oct15.zip
(6.6 MiB) Downloaded 305 times
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:35 am

Noddy330 wrote:downloading new notes 1 of 1722 ...
moving local notes to recycle bin 1 of 79

and now all seems ok


Hi Noddy,
well, good, I guess. Although it seems that some kind of problem was still there.. Do you by any chance still have that logs? Could you please send them over? Or at least, the failing notes? Thanks in advance!
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:36 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:I hope this will no longer be a problem, when the 3.0 UI changes will simplify overall handling.

Yep, that's the point.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:40 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:No. My example is misleading. Better try: when "javascript generators ec6" changes to "javascript generators harmony". It is still three words, but the last one changed. Of course this implies, that a change in word numbers also will give a separate history item. For example when "javascript generators harmony" changes to "generators harmony".
What is a "changed" word? Is "generators harm" different from "generators harmony"?

I agree. Beta 3 (or beta 4 in regards to the SN problems) is ready for production. With one minor issue: let's change the menu shortcut as you have suggested to Ctrl+Shift+Bksp.

Great. Let's do it.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 2.8 Beta 3

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:46 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:With the exception of empty states, the single menu is fine. What is still difficult to understand (to predict), is what will be stored to the history. For example, when i switch to a section the text search will be added to the history, because it is the new current state. However, history should reflect the past only, not the current state, as the current state has not been executed as a search yet. Some of the confusion caused relates to the fact, that it sometimes can be difficult to explain something on a bulletin board, which could be easily explained, when people sit side by side.


This too should be fixed by the 3.0 simplification. Now the global search box is an illusion - if the text filter is not empty, it changes the text filter of the section you switch into.

But regarding the history menu, I think the idea of only displaying the current state when it is also recorded in history is a good one. I think it will reduce perplexion. I'll include this in 2.8 final.
Alex

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