[Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

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1. Please keep it one request/suggestion per topic.
2. Please mark the requests with the following tags:
[Startup] - issue related to the program's startup or shutdown process;
[Taking] and [Clipping] - related to acquiring/creating notes (excl. editing);
[Viewing] - related to notes list browsing and reading;
[Editing] - related to the process of editing new and existing notes;
[Search] - related to note searching and finding;
[Managing] - related to note organization and management;
[Reordering/Sorting] - related to sorting or reordering the notes list;
[Clipboard] - clipboard operations;
[Import] and [Export] - issue related to bulk notes import/export;
[Globalization] - issues related to multiple languages/cultures support;
[Files] and [Backup] - file operations,notes back-end and backup;
[UI] - UI issues which don't fall into any of the above categories;
[Other] - other issues which don't fall into any of the above categories.

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Brains
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[Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby Brains » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:51 pm

The most strange idea about the CintaNotes is its Tag Sidebar kinda-management tool. Tags are of any good as additional search customization feature (let's face the truth — only if properly implemented, i.e. basic categories and sub-categories taxonomy is present from the box, the tags are customized in any way one wants and any tag is selectable once created from some global tagpad for tagging new notes).
My own experience tells me that I'll need 50-odd tags to indicate alot of subject matters. Even such relatively small quantity will drive the Tag Sidebar unusable by itself, and unusable for the aimed purpose: to find 3-5 clips among related 47 I have to have at least 9.4 subcategory tags, typing them manually into each note at the moment of creation. There is no pre- or post-tagging tool in Cinta Notes!
Why then not to return to traditional tree-like outline presentation and sorting, leaving tags for the proper purpose of tagging?
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Re: [Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:51 pm

Hello and thanks for the interesting critique ;)

I really see your point here.
I'd like to remind you that there are some features planned that will enhance note management abilities. These are:
- Multiple notebooks (1st level of the hierarchy)
- Tabs (= mutually exclusive categories = 2nd level of the hierarchy)
- Tag Groups

I hope that with all these features implemented you won't really need a yet another tree-notepad.
Alex
marun2
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Re: [Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby marun2 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:43 pm

First, I love Cintanotes! But Please no! Dont do tabs for multiple notebooks or tree metaphor!

I have been using treepad all along for note taking with its tree metaphor of representing notes and was actively looking around for a good alternative until I found 'the' note taking app which is Cintanotes. I dont ever want to go back to a tree style metaphor again!

I welcome you to view it from my idea of design philosophy (which Cintanotes currently implements) is that, the number of steps required, before a note goes into the 'evolving archive' or 'black hole' must be minimal in terms of clicks or mouse moves/clicks required. If you change the Cintanotes design by adding tabs for multiple notebooks or change the paradigm to tree format, think of the extra clicks and the brain processing required as the brain tries to 'categorize' the incoming snippet/text note. (deciding which notebook to open, which tab to click, and so on), this is exactly what was wrong all along with Treepad and the like apps that use tree metaphor. There were simply too many clicks/hesitant brain processing time as you pause and consider, required to 'locate' the location where a new text note/snippet has to go. With Cintanotes, all I have to remember is a unique tag I assign to a category of notes that I want to remember, and when I type in that tag, that note comes up auto, and I double click and edit it and hit Ctrl+Enter. This is exactly how it should be and I like it this way.

I am saving my CN installation file just in case Cintanotes ever forays into tabs for multiple notebooks or adds tabs. I will be a stickler to the current version which doesnt have tabs or multiple notebooks.
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Right the opposite. Re: [Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby Brains » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:16 pm

CintaNotes Developer wrote:- Multiple notebooks (1st level of the hierarchy)
Not bad, but not a solution either. CintaNotes isn't (and shouldn't be) one of those full-featured outliners, but a lightweight and handy utility for immediate accessible textual data capture and temporary ‘at-your-fingertips’ storage. If those notebooks are physical, i. e. represent some disk files, they won't solve nothing at all. If the are virtual, i. e. some bigger individually addressable data chunks inside a single clipbook file, well, they're the cap of a tree presentation conception.
CintaNotes Developer wrote:- Tabs (= mutually exclusive categories = 2nd level of the hierarchy)
Looks like a classical feature creep example. How much tabs can be made simultaneously visible and not being a mess at the same time? Besides, instead of all-in-one tree clip management control you propose two different by nature, but related by purpose. Is that a reasonable interface solution?
CintaNotes Developer wrote:- Tag Groups
That's it! It's an obvious option… for the tag management. It will help searching, but only add the additional control step to the already inconvenient clip management.
I hope that with all these features implemented you won't really need a yet another tree-notepad.
Right the opposite, I'm afraid. Sorry… :roll:
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Re: [Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby kranor » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:43 pm

One of my reasons for initially using CN was that it was NOT tree based. As the dev says there is already a huge range of tree based notepads. There are users that require a very fast, small and short term storage note taker. As an example I have 30 long term notes and at any one time around 50 - 100 short term notes (note is stored for less than 5 days). I use CN as a tool whilst doing SAP development and support and whilst doing web design. The current tagging system supports my use almost perfectly at the moment. Whilst speaking from my experience tree based notes become cumbersome for my type of usage. Yes tree note systems work. For one situation just like CN works in other situations. Do you want CN to become another treepad clone or to stand apart as it currently does? I know which one I will pick.......
No trees were killed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Re: [Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:07 am

marun2 wrote:First, I love Cintanotes! But Please no! Dont do tabs for multiple notebooks or tree metaphor!

I have been using treepad all along for note taking with its tree metaphor of representing notes and was actively looking around for a good alternative until I found 'the' note taking app which is Cintanotes. I dont ever want to go back to a tree style metaphor again!

...

I am saving my CN installation file just in case Cintanotes ever forays into tabs for multiple notebooks or adds tabs. I will be a stickler to the current version which doesnt have tabs or multiple notebooks.


Don't worry - I'll never take the convenience of having just one "black hole" away. You'll have to explicitly enable tabs, and even then there will be one default tab acting as a single collector of all clipped notes.
Same with multiple notebooks. I haven't yet 100% decided if they will be separate files on disk or not. But one thing is for sure - if you don't want to use this feature, you won't have to. You'll just have the default notebook loaded and saved automatically.
Alex
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Re: Right the opposite. Re: [Managing] Back to traditions: tree outline

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:23 am

Brains wrote:
CintaNotes Developer wrote:- Multiple notebooks (1st level of the hierarchy)
Not bad, but not a solution either. CintaNotes isn't (and shouldn't be) one of those full-featured outliners, but a lightweight and handy utility for immediate accessible textual data capture and temporary ‘at-your-fingertips’ storage. If those notebooks are physical, i. e. represent some disk files, they won't solve nothing at all. If the are virtual, i. e. some bigger individually addressable data chunks inside a single clipbook file, well, they're the cap of a tree presentation conception.

Physical representation doesn't really matter if there will be possibility to open several files at once.
Still I think the second option of a bit more convenient, but the first one might offer better performance in case of huge notebooks.

Brains wrote:
CintaNotes Developer wrote:- Tabs (= mutually exclusive categories = 2nd level of the hierarchy)
Looks like a classical feature creep example. How much tabs can be made simultaneously visible and not being a mess at the same time? Besides, instead of all-in-one tree clip management control you propose two different by nature, but related by purpose. Is that a reasonable interface solution?


Yes, I think that's completely reasonable, because notebooks represent whole different areas, and tabs represent topics/projects within these areas. Anything more elaborate will be cumbersome and too much for CintaNotes.

The tab visiblity issue is exactly the case why both multiple notebooks and tabs are needed. It would be possible to do everything using a giant tree of hierarchical tags. But would it be convenient? I don't think so.

A typical CN user will have 1-4 notebooks with each having 1-10 tabs. This is the top level, remember? And it will be possible to convert a tab into a tag and vice versa with a single context menu command.

Brains wrote:
CintaNotes Developer wrote:- Tag Groups
That's it! It's an obvious option… for the tag management. It will help searching, but only add the additional control step to the already inconvenient clip management.
I hope that with all these features implemented you won't really need a yet another tree-notepad.
Right the opposite, I'm afraid. Sorry… :roll:

Can't you see how many people are tired of the tree approach? Building a complete taxonomy is tiresome, complicated and doesn't add much value to the purpose of note-taking.
Just accept that CintaNotes is not a tree-based application. If you need a tree so much, maybe you should look at something like AmlPages, which has both tree and note clipping functionality.
Alex

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